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Post by ftwelder on Sept 30, 2012 14:07:59 GMT 2
Greetings, I feel very lucky to have found a frame that I think was built by Giuseppe Limongi. I found a student of his that made this suggestion and I have thought this was correct. Others have agreed but we are only people with little real knowledge and much desire and perhaps imagination. I have been a guest of this forum and viewed many images and have lost confidence in my mind. I see many frames here that share features. I think this is a good time to abandon my thoughts completely and wish to seek your advice and thoughts. The bike was found with Stronglight 97 cranks and p72 Nuovo record rear derailleur in very poor condition at a jumble in New Jersey, US 29 901 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr material removed from Campag drops 29 589 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr Like many but like few. 29 585 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr I know nothing on the outside but the inside is cut away 29 581 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr I am surprised to see this routing and no holes since the metal is cut and filed so much elsewhere. 29 577 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr 29 586 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr 29 591 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr 29 620 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr Thank you for looking!
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Post by Munny on Sept 30, 2012 16:08:28 GMT 2
Certainly a nice frame. But what are the details that are pointing to a specific builder ? The routing of the rear derailleur cable inside the base ? It is actually a bit difficult to understand how it went through ( Under the bottom bracket box and then ?)
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Post by Romuald on Sept 30, 2012 20:33:45 GMT 2
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Post by Munny on Sept 30, 2012 21:44:07 GMT 2
The fork renforcement plates are standards fitting that have been used by others.
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Post by Romuald on Sept 30, 2012 23:40:51 GMT 2
Another here : velospace.org/node/3523Note the engraved "G. LIMONGI" at the bottom of head tube (similar to 753 bike) :
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Post by ftwelder on Oct 5, 2012 2:42:28 GMT 2
When I first began the search for the builder it was in the area where the bike was found. There were only a few builders, all from the east. Limongi, Chivas (from spain) and Dave Moulton (UK) who could make a proper racing frame.
I think it was Tom Kellogg who trained under Mr. Limongi who suggested Guisseppe Limongi as the Builder. Tom had trained under with him for some time and knew his work. We then went to Mike Fraysee who, with his father Vic invited these builders to the states as the owners of Paris sport bikes.
Vic Fraysse was a pioneer in the states with his approach to racing. A small token compared to Europe but at least a start.
There were so few skilled builders working in the states. The list is very short.
My friend Eric, who found the frame contacted Fraysse and this is what he said
"Heres that info from what i can remember of the conversation with Mike Fraysse. He spoke a little over my heade at times about specifics of frame construction but was always proud to speak of him.
He was very impressed with the frame, and went on about Limongi and his meticulousness and peculiarities. He told a story about a student Limongi had in the paris sport shop. The kid had built his frame and was filing the excess brass, Limongi observed him along the way and after a few weeks when the frame was done, He took a hacksaw and cut it in half because the kid was filing too deep into the tubeset instead of the brass.
He also talked about how He built all or many the jigs that paris sport would use throughout their house production time. He built for them from 1968-69 until the mid 70s
He said the seat lug on our frame was a giveaway for him. He also talked about inside the BB shell and how all the tubes were mitered beforehand to get that cleanliness we talked about, but he doubted if anything was done there post brazing.
He said it was definately a custom bike for one of his racers not a production frame, He thought it might have been raced by a guy name Jeff Saunders (maybe Geoff), 50%
He said the brass that Limongi used to braze was not available in the US and he had it brought over or brought it himself from France. It was different because of its melting point, it had a lower melting point than the US brass, I think i remember it was 1400 Degrees? not sure on that. But it allowed for less heat on the tubes to avoid deformations and such.
He did say that he might have original Limongi decals.
One more thing about the Limongi, I recall that he mentioned there was no chroming done on Paris Sport builds, save for a few show bikes. He said Limongi would have chromed many of the bikes had made in france. But cost and quality of chrome around the PS shop was not worth doing. Although he wondered/speculated as to why the fork was chrome, he believed it also was Limongi built."
(end)******
I found the end work on the stays, the top of the seat collar and the internal bottom bracket work (to a builder, as beautiful as the exterior) to be strong evidence.
It is very difficult for us, in the states to find information on the people who created our cycling heritage (as odd as it is) . These builders came to us (children) as adults having lived another life, In the case of Pepe, in Paris designing parts for Colnago and bringing materials with his luggage to New Jersey had to begin from nothing and supporting athletes as Delgado and Lemond and many others.
I suppose with the rich cycling history in France, men like Limongi are forgotten among the giants of the road (and the flame) that fill the history books.
I still wish to know his life and testify to the quality of his work. I see similarities to the Plume bike in the seat collar area. Perhaps I am mistaken
Franck
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Post by Munny on Oct 5, 2012 9:09:26 GMT 2
Very interesting story.
Don't try to heat up your frame to 1400 C Degree to understand because this is the steel melting point. The melting point should be around 900C or below
Has anybody summarized the history of the migrant builders, bicycles ? Masi moved. Who else ?
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Post by Romuald on Oct 5, 2012 9:47:58 GMT 2
Franck,
If you own little real knowledge, we, here in France, know nothing more than Classic-Rendez Vous says.
It's generally the fact that French bicycles, frame-makers, parts... are better known in GB and USA.
Only few people here knew personnaly the mens who do these pieces of art, and generally do not speak about what they know.
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Post by alainm on Oct 5, 2012 10:09:18 GMT 2
& you are right, the seatstays ends are similar to Plume Sport (just a little bit more enveloping the seat tube) But the rear dropouts are totally different: the Plume Sport men never split the chainstay tube to put the drop-out itself in. That would, following them, weaken the whole part.
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Post by alainm on Oct 5, 2012 10:10:30 GMT 2
& you are right, the seatstays ends are similar to Plume Sport (just a little bit more enveloping the seat tube) But the rear dropouts are totally different: the Plume Sport men never split the chainstay tube to put the drop-out itself in. That would, following them, have weaken the whole part. you see? they proceeded exactly the same way for the front drop-outs.
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Post by Munny on Oct 5, 2012 12:12:23 GMT 2
For the top of the stays to envelop the seat lug, this was not allways made like that by Plume Sport. It was explained to us that it was a new way to attach them, coming from UK. I have to say that from what I see on the Belgian scene, this type of attachment was adopted by most of the top Belgian frame builder at the time. For the drop outs, I brazed my first fork having created a slot in which the drop outs were inserted before welding. Jacques, the Plume Sport master, immediatelly explained me what he was thinking of that. It is time consuming, difficult to properly adjust the slot and I agree that this will weaken the area. Over here, in Belgium, the favor was to adjust a bit the drop out to the end of the fork blades and then to brase with bronze (no silver brazing) It is definitively more solid. The finishing depends of the builder and the quality will vary from these top hand filing to just left as is. In France, the favor of top builders is to use the slot. But there, the talent is expressed through the finishing, like here these end of arrow, or fish tails or rond drilling through ... Definitively different from a factory finish (like Peugeot) The picture of Alain is realy pleasing to the eyes. But what a work ! All manual with Nicholson files.
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Post by alainm on Oct 5, 2012 13:21:21 GMT 2
For the top of the stays to envelop the seat lug, this was not allways made like that by Plume Sport. what a work ! All manual with Nicholson files. those ends were Jacques' touch: from 71/72 to the mid 80's when he stopped framebuilding... Yes indeed! Here's another picture to enjoy the work, -notice the traces: Nicholson's, as Munny mentionned it-, totaly handmade. (There were no motorized tools in the atelier: except a drill machine on a benchmounting, but it was fast removed because it soon broke down, Jacques didn't repaired it & kept on bumping it when working ...)
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Post by Romuald on Oct 25, 2012 20:53:03 GMT 2
Limongi touch' (1975)
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Post by Munny on Oct 25, 2012 21:24:08 GMT 2
Connaissant la très mauvaise réputation des axes Titane, en alliage, j'ose même pas imaginer. Fignon aurait apprécié
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Post by Romuald on Nov 5, 2012 21:49:45 GMT 2
Ressemble beaucoup au N°23 et comme C'est Giuseppe qui fait le support technique...
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